Today, in another round of blue posts announcing game changes for Cataclysm came the news that the differentiation between ten and twenty five man raids would be all but removed with the third expansion.
The source of the information can be found here. In summary:-
- 10 man and 25 man raids will share the same lockout
- 10 man and 25 man raids will share the same loot
- There will be no difference in difficulty between 10 man raids and 25 man raids
- Heroic versions of both 10 and 25 man raids will be activated on a case by case basis; exactly as Icecrown Citadel currently works
- 10 man and 25 man heroic raids will share the same loot
- To acknowledge the logistic difficulties in organising 25 man raids in comparison with 10 man raids, 25 man encounters will drop more loot
Rather than reword the entire blue post, I’m copying it directly here. It reads as follows:-
We’re continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we’d like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we’re combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn’t apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We’re designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we’ll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They’ll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) — Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you’re able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don’t plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you’re a big guild or a small guild the choice won’t be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We’re eagerly awaiting any that we may have left
unanswered. To the comments!
Obviously, as someone who is already a member of a ten man strict guild, this couldn’t be better news for me. When I (and some friends) originally made the decision to switch to a ten man guild, we did so for a number of reasons.
Firstly, an issue for many mediocre twenty five man guilds out there is the skill of their players. Most guilds have a strong core of active, skilled and dedicated members. However they still need those twenty five people to fill the spots and frequently they will recruit less skilled players in order to do so. They get caught in a catch 22 situation. If they raise their expectations, then they may have to wait a significant period of time before raiding; thus running the risk of losing their core. If they lower their expectations in order to raid, they are doomed to “carry” a certain percentage of players on a daily basis. This is all well and good for some encounters, for the harder ones where everyone’s performance is vital, they hit a brick wall on progression.
Secondly, the atmosphere in smaller guilds is friendlier. With so few members, everyone gets to know each other on a very personal level.
Thirdly and somewhat related to the above, it’s logistically easier to organise ten people and their schedules. You can generally fit raids to accommodate all your members. Due to this, you don’t need as many excess members for rotations when others can’t make it. Thus your team becomes more adjusted to playing together, perform better together and, as above, know each other better.
However the problem for ten man guilds have been widely publicised on this blog in the past. If you want to compete for PvE progress with your equals (that is to say, other ten man guilds), then the only way at present is to follow guildox.com’s ten man strict regulations. This prevents your members from being able to pug twenty five man raids. It also limits recruitment, both for raiders and for social members. In addition, we pay a penalty on our loot. This extends further than just the actual stats of an piece, but runs to mounts and other vanity items. Mimiron’s Head? Invincible? Both come from twenty five man raids only.
I’d love to hear the thoughts of readers who are currently active in either ten or twenty five man guilds. It’s certainly a big change for Cataclysm but it also remains faithful to their ethos of bringing raid content to the masses.